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so I've been practicing downshifting and blipping and I don't understand what I'm doing wrong. because when as I release the clutch the bike is still giving me that jerky motion you get because of the engine braking.

here's what I'm going:

going at 45mph on 4th gear.
- Pull the clutch and close the throttle and brake a bit
- then blip (assuming blip means revving a a bit or just pulling the           throttle a bit very quick)

- and downshift.

then as the clutch engages I start that awful engine braking.

I thought by blipping I could avid the whole jerky and loud noise. Mayb I'm not blipping enough? how much should I rev?


or could just someone tell me how to downshift gears very quickly and very smooth?


thanks

There's no clear cut answer other than that with more practice and time you'll get smoother. Withou being there to see exactly what you're doing my first guess based on what you wrote is (not necessarily in this order):

- Based on "Awful engine braking" I'd say you're not rev matching properly (e.g. shifting into wrong gear too early) because the engine braking should be smooth when done properly.
- Letting off clutch too abruptly .. remember to be smooth and you don't need to pull clutch in all the way to shift down
- Closing throttle completely .. you should maintain a very slight throttle amount to rev match as you shift down, otherwise you can get that jerky motion.
- or a combination of the above

If you have some experience riding I recommend reading the book "Sport Riding Techniques", there's an entire chapter devoted to this and he does a much better job explaining it than I can. If you're very new to riding his book won't help much.

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Mawfaki # .5

02 CBR954rr 2 Bro's; PC3; Zero Grav; Corbin Seat; Throttlemeister; etc...

My guess is you're trying to do more than you have to.  By this I mean, you're trying to blip when blipping is not needed.  When you're going 45mph in 4th gear, the engine will only be at 3k rpms or so (this is a guesstimate).  And 45mph in 3rd gear will be around 5k rpms or so (again a guess).  So if you're in 4th gear, going 45mph, and you blip the throttle to 10k rpms, then down shift into 3rd, you're actually over-blipping. 

The entire reason for blipping is to match your engine's rpms to what it should be for the gear to which you're downshifting.  If you over-blip, the bike will actually lurch forward a bit because the engine is trying to make the rear wheel spin faster than it's currently moving.  If you under-blip, then the bike will jerk a bit, almost like someone applied the rear brake really hard for the tiniest fraction of a second.  This is because the engine's rpms are too slow, and when you engage the clutch, it actually forces the rear wheel to slow down.

There's no magic to blipping.  It's all just straight physics.  And you don't have to be perfect with matching the rpms.  You do, however, have to be in the general ballpark, or the bike will jerk under you, one way or the other.

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"I'm sorry our president is an idiot. I didn't vote for him."

B/Y 04 F4i - CW fender eliminator, Clear Alternatives signal integrator, Watsen Design LED front signals, Vortex frame sliders, LP dark smoke windscreen, Micron high mount CF exhaust, DG8 gear indicator, GPR stabilizer, Galfer SS brake lines, Öhlins PRCLS rear, PCIIIr, Custom map, Pazzo adjustable levers.

Today, while going to work, I checked what the rpms are at 45mph in both 3rd and 4th gears.  In 3rd, it's ~5200rpm, and in 4th it's ~4500.  So you're only looking at a 700 rpm change, which is almost negligible, and more so because of the fact that you're in no way stressing the engine.  Anything other than a very minor blip will be an over-blip, and will cause the bike to lurch forward.

Hope this helps.

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"I'm sorry our president is an idiot. I didn't vote for him."

B/Y 04 F4i - CW fender eliminator, Clear Alternatives signal integrator, Watsen Design LED front signals, Vortex frame sliders, LP dark smoke windscreen, Micron high mount CF exhaust, DG8 gear indicator, GPR stabilizer, Galfer SS brake lines, Öhlins PRCLS rear, PCIIIr, Custom map, Pazzo adjustable levers.

Simple answer to this question is to buy a slipper clutch from STM. Blipping is not needed. I can bang down the gears without issue, and never blip the throttle. The STM clutch makes the bike feel more like my old 250GP bike.

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_____________________________________________
2008 Triumph 675
My Website = http://www.3knucklesracing.com
BSS #88
TTC #88

but he'll get dq'ed for racing that in production class duc! LOL

a slipper will help, but know racers (faster than me, wayyy faster) who still blip even with slippers. if you watch spies/mladin, even they blip still. i think you're blipping too low in the revs where you don't need to as someone above said. try it on higher revs, like 3rd gear in 45 to 2nd (slowing down still too pretending you're entering a corner).

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"Leaders are like tea; put them in hot water to find out how strong they are." Anonymous

^^^ Spies and Mladin use a dry clutch setup. Different than the wet slipper. But it is also independent of how you prefer to downshift. Electronics have been introduced to completely get rid of shifting with your foot, and now rests in controls on the left clipon. Again, no blipping required with this setup.

Watch MotoGP riders and see if they blip. You'll notice they don't and bang through 5 gears without issue. Again, electronics on top tier AMA, WSBK and MotoGP teams have done away with the need for this old school way of downshifting to match engine speed to road speed. But a quality slipper clutch can achieve the same thing, just not to the same degree.

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_____________________________________________
2008 Triumph 675
My Website = http://www.3knucklesracing.com
BSS #88
TTC #88

here's everything step by step..

clutch in and close throttle at the same time and brake if necessary, the rpm's almost instantaneously fall from 4500 to around 3800.
then I blipp and revs go to about 4400-4600 and shift down to third and start letting the clutch out (i usually pull the clutch all the way in bc I'm still getting used to the motion) and the moment the clutch engages (the rpms are around 4100) I hear the engine braking and even tho the bike doesn't jerk at all, I lose  LOT of speed. the whole process I can do in less than a second so i know I'm not waiting too much after blipping.

should I try blipping after shifting and b4 letting the clutch out?

and I don't mind the engine braking, the only reason why i wanna avoid it besides the smoothness is bc I keep reading engine braking add wear and tear to your engine, but since you guys are more experience than me, is that true?

i didn't know rockstar makita suzuki had  dry clutch setup. i don't disagree that a slipper will be a big aid here though, just to put the notion out there. heck, i can't even blip and brake on my 150R when I hit the TT track, and then try to ever so slightly use the rear brake too? too much skills work for me!!!

to OP, maybe the blipping is too early before letting go of the clutch? that the revs have gone done below optimal? again, you're blipping below 5K rpm. i'm surprised you're even feeling enough engine braking to blip at that point.

i'd try it at least at 7-8K. If you have the F4i, redline starts i think at 13K? so plenty of "safe" room there.

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"Leaders are like tea; put them in hot water to find out how strong they are." Anonymous

mefisto,
pulling the clutch in all the way is your first mistake.  on both up and downshifts, there really is no need to ever fully disengage the clutch on any manual transmission vehicle.  u only need to pull the lever in halfway or less to get a smooth positive shift.  this kind of agrees w/ wat high_revs just said.  since it takes u much longer to release the clutch from full-in, your blipping is probably much too early.  in fact, w/ all the time u r taking w/ the clutch, ull probably need to hold the revs up instead of just a quick blip.  for me, a proper blip and downshift all happens in one motion w/ no discernable time or order of blip, shift, and clutch.  i dont even preload the shifter like most ppl seem to suggest. 

ok, ill try to be more helpful.  for comparison, hows your upshifting??  the motions are practically the same (atleast for me).  very slight amount of throttle twitch, slight amount of clutch use, and a quick shift... with all this happening in a split second.  if uve already mastered good upshifting, try to apply this same technique to downshifting and ull be golden.

oh, and "added wear and tear" on an engine from engine braking is baloney.  you are engine braking the entire time u r off the gas and theres nothing u can do about it (unless u feel like slowing for turns in neutral which is a very bad idea).  honestly, engine braking around 4500rpm is nothing... try doing it from 12000rpm, much more fun.

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Naked 93' F2...... RIP -- 04/12/07
04' 600RR Black - currently stuck between track and street usage
- Brembo Master, Sato's, & Ohlins out back

stangmx135 I think i see what you mean, upshifting I do it in one single motion and can do the clutching in/closing throttle/upshifting and releasing the clutch pretty easily and in the blink of an eye, actually I just tried and can do it faster than I blink :P.

I just find it hard to do it fast when you have to close the throttle and blip at the same time.

pulling in the clutch all the way doesn't conflict with my upshifting, but I guess it is conflicting with my downshifting.

so to get it right I should. clutch in/close throttle/blip(but closing throttle after blipping)
/downshift/release clutch and pull throttle to continue moving.

one thing that found is that giving gas as clutch engages kicks engine braking out the window. and I'll be honest I never heard anyone say clutch doesn't have to be fully disangaged, I'm guessing you picked that up from track days.

think about what you're trying to do here: minimize the difference between the wheel speed and the engine speed for that specific gear and that specific wheel speed.

so to get it right I should. clutch in/close throttle/blip(but closing throttle after blipping)
/downshift/release clutch and pull throttle to continue moving.

with that in mind, there are 2 things in your list that don't belong.

Think!!!

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"I'm sorry our president is an idiot. I didn't vote for him."

B/Y 04 F4i - CW fender eliminator, Clear Alternatives signal integrator, Watsen Design LED front signals, Vortex frame sliders, LP dark smoke windscreen, Micron high mount CF exhaust, DG8 gear indicator, GPR stabilizer, Galfer SS brake lines, Öhlins PRCLS rear, PCIIIr, Custom map, Pazzo adjustable levers.

mefistofeles666:

stangmx135 I think i see what you mean, upshifting I do it in one single motion and can do the clutching in/closing throttle/upshifting and releasing the clutch pretty easily and in the blink of an eye, actually I just tried and can do it faster than I blink :P.

I just find it hard to do it fast when you have to close the throttle and blip at the same time.

pulling in the clutch all the way doesn't conflict with my upshifting, but I guess it is conflicting with my downshifting.

so to get it right I should. clutch in/close throttle/blip(but closing throttle after blipping)
/downshift/release clutch and pull throttle to continue moving.

one thing that found is that giving gas as clutch engages kicks engine braking out the window. and I'll be honest I never heard anyone say clutch doesn't have to be fully disangaged, I'm guessing you picked that up from track days.

if i really had to think about a discernable order to things, i wouldnt go w/ that one.  like i said in my other post, theres no way u can get rid of engine braking... and u really shouldnt.  so that changes the order a bit.  also, the blip isnt necessary for the downshift.  its not like we r riding on transmissions made in the 40s w/out syncros, so downshift first.  so lets c...  how about:

close throttle, (clutch in, downshift, blip, release clutch), ease on throttle ... stuff in (..) should all be practically done at the same time, but the order still works i think.  easing on the throttle is only necessary if u need some maintenance throttle coming into a corner.  if u r just rolling to a stoplight, use engine braking along w/ the brakes. 

actually, i picked it up from around 15yrs of experience on dirtbikes and plenty of time driving assorted manual transmission auto's that me and my family owns.  the skills has just very easily transferred to sportbikes and trackdays.  interesting story, my quick shifting actually got me out of a ticket one time.  i was pulled over after the cop took a good 2miles to catch up to me and he let me off after saying "i kno u kno how to ride by the way u shift, but try to be a little less conspicuous next time and slow down a bit."

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Naked 93' F2...... RIP -- 04/12/07
04' 600RR Black - currently stuck between track and street usage
- Brembo Master, Sato's, & Ohlins out back

my post above was invisible?

From SRT book .. I followed these steps when I was learning it early on and it worked well ....
(note that there are pics in book that correspond to steps below and he also has 3 pages describing it in more detail but this is the basic gist of it):

A properly executed downshift is often necessary while braking, so we must
learn to "blip" (rev) the throttle as the clutch is disengaged and the lower
gear selected, while slowing the bike with the brakes. The blip matches the
engine speed to the new gear, making for a seamless downshift without the
jerkiness of a "blipless" downshift. The steps are physically easy, but
relatively tough to coordinate at first.

A. Close the throttle and squeeze on the front brake. You never want to
accelerate and brake at the same time, so make sure that throttle is shut.

B. Pull in the clutch, but use only two fingers and use your ring finger as a
clutch-lever limiter because the clutch lever doesn't need to be pulled all
the way to the bar for a shift. C. Make your downshift with a controlled
movement of the shift lever, don't kick at it. D. Blip your throttle (a short
rev) while continuing to brake and while the clutch lever is still pulled in.

E. Let out the clutch lever in a controlled manner, just in case you haven't
matched the rpm perfectly to the new gear. If you have four downshifts to
execute for a corner, that means a total of four clutch movements and four
blips (one of each per gear) because a sequential transmission likes to be
reloaded between shifts. (Brian Blades)

Tips for practicing: Letting the clutch lever out too quickly is one of two
reasons your downshift will be rough. The other is that your blip didn't send
the rpm high enough for the new gear. Steps 1 through 5 happen almost
simultaneously when the downshift is done correctly.

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Mawfaki # .5

02 CBR954rr 2 Bro's; PC3; Zero Grav; Corbin Seat; Throttlemeister; etc...

you gotta post more in this thread kewl!!!!

all this talk about revs and stuff... i thought y'all talking about me!

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"Leaders are like tea; put them in hot water to find out how strong they are." Anonymous