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I have been reading throught the forums and stumbled accross one where there is a lot of discussion about lean angle vs hanging off the bike, when is the point when you get off and hang and where you just lean with the bike? I am relatively new to riding also and came off when I came round a right hand corner that cambered off halfway round and the bike didnt go where i wanted it to - any advice?  ie how much would you suggest a new rider lean the bike over?

if u r a new rider, most likely u r still struggling w/ actually leaning w/ the bike.  id bet that your head moves a bit in the wrong direction in a turn.  everyone does it when they first start riding and ull prob notice that passengers are the worst at it no matter how many times u tell em not to do it.  it jus takes time to get over leaning the "wrong" way.  a simple tip... consciously attempt to push your head towards your inside mirror whenever u take a medium to high paced turn. 

as for hanging off, its not neccessary on the street ever.  u should never be going fast enough to c the limits of traction, so ull never need to minimize lean angle by hanging off.  in fact, i find that hanging off a low speeds is physically awkward and hard to do.  im sure centripetal force holds the rider in that position quite a bit, making it easier on faster corners.  but at a street pace, ull jus be wasting energy and fighting the bike. 

remember, lean angle is really only a function of how fast u r going and how tight u need to turn.  its not like u just pick how far u r going to lean the bike.  if u force the bike to lean more than needed, ull go down... and if u force the bike to lean less than needed, ull run wide which is probably exact how u went down.  off-camber turns are tricky, but a simple solution is to slow down and relax. 

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Naked 93' F2...... RIP -- 04/12/07
04' 600RR Black - currently stuck between track and street usage
- Brembo Master, Sato's, & Ohlins out back

The biggest lesson to a new riders isn't how far to lean a bike over or how much to get off the bike it is to look where you want to go.  What I mean is to look through the turn and the bike will go there.  The leaning part will come naturally after that.  Don't rush trying to drag a knee it will happen.  Take your time and gain some experience first.  And remember when you are riding with riders who are faster then you in the twisties stay within your your limits.

the amount of hanging-off will also be related to speed and lean. i know this as i've struggling right now with my speeds (at the track). hanging off too much as slow speeds is a lot of workout since you don't have momentum to help you get planted on the bike (so I'm told on my issues). leaning too much at slow speeds also is a lot of work. you can touch knee on slow speeds, but it's just hard w/o that centrifugal (or was that centripital) force help.

do i do it? yeah... sometimes, but not much hanging off. i just treat it as conditioning practice, but it's tiring to me actually.

[edit] stang beat to it on his points.. should've read his first. especially on body positioning and speeds.

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"Leaders are like tea; put them in hot water to find out how strong they are." Anonymous

thanks for the replies and will listen to your advice, i thought it was a bit early to be thinking about that stuff, but there seemed to be some heated discussion about it.  I will take my time in learning and do it properly, they have track days here in nz so I think i will attend some of those as they have professional riders there to give you tips and teach you after they see you ride so thanks for clearing that up for me, I have found this forum very informative.

trackdays are the *best* environment to learn this stuff.

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"Leaders are like tea; put them in hot water to find out how strong they are." Anonymous

high_revs:

trackdays are the *best* environment to learn this stuff.

W3RD!!

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badfish '05 600RR Purple/Black

high_revs:

trackdays are the ONLY environment to learn this stuff correctly 

FIXED!

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Naked 93' F2...... RIP -- 04/12/07
04' 600RR Black - currently stuck between track and street usage
- Brembo Master, Sato's, & Ohlins out back

while i have a thread i am thinking of getting a nsr seeing as there are people on here saying that people who start on a 250 end up better riders, why is this? why is a 600 not suitable if you have a bit of self control not to twist your wrist everytime you get on it?

batp, it's about learning corner speed. on a 600 or bigger machine, it's so easy to make up time by just whacking the throttle open and then park it on the turns. you can also whack the throttle exiting a corner but with (big!) repurcussions whereas a 250gp bike, it's forgive you more (but it can happen too, just watch 250gp motogp).

on a 250gp bike, you learn corner speed/entry/exits. now granted if you mastered a 250gp, you won't carry as much corner speed as a 1000c bike as that requires slightly different technique (popular is point and shoot concept), but a 250gp bike makes you focus more on learning the corner since you don't get much opportunity to make time on the straights.

case in point... the first time i took my 1990 FZR400 to the same track i use my 1999 CBR F4600, i hit the my F4 avg laptimes by end of day. That's about 30-35 HP less on the FZR than on my F4. And I didn't have a damper, braking wasn't as good, and there's definitely no whacking and going anywhere with the throttle on the FZR.

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"Leaders are like tea; put them in hot water to find out how strong they are." Anonymous

jus to add to wat high_revs is saying,

any modern sportbike can run insanely fast from the factory.  the problem is that most riders dont have the confidence to reach max lean angle, and therefore max speed into every corner.  not only does a 250GP bike teach u better cornering because its needed for good laptimes... its also much much easier.  those bikes weigh in almost 100lbs less than your modern 600.  i wont go into the physics of it, but simply put there is much less stress on the tires at lean.  so all that jus translates to elbow dragging lean angles.  applying those skills later on to a 600 is wat makes ppl good riders.

however, most ppl that talk about 250s are not refering to 2-stroke GP bikes.  instead, everyone is talking about the Ninja250 as its the most newb-friendly bike ever.  a 250GP bike is not even close to the same league as a Ninja250, which is y u really shouldnt get one (the Ninja) for the racetrack unless u plan on racing 250production of 250superbike.  ud prob be bored rather quickly. 

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Naked 93' F2...... RIP -- 04/12/07
04' 600RR Black - currently stuck between track and street usage
- Brembo Master, Sato's, & Ohlins out back

i may look at geting the 250 and parking my f2 for a while then, and take the time to learn, cause i cant see the point in being a tosser on the staights and slow round the corners, i just enjoy riding so far and i think doing whatever is best to become proficient at it is a good call, thanks for your replies.

as long as this topic up ill throw my question in. i dont really have a problem with leaning into a turn or, hanging off the bike (mainly becuz i dont ride track and mainly to city driving and twisties on weekends), but my main deal is with imperfections in the road. ive hit the filler "black strips" for cracks in the roads, and little road bumps in the turn and it is always in the back of my mind that the worst could happen. guess i dont really know what my question is, but any advice would be appreciated.

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'94 CBR F2
Two Brothers slip on
K&N filter
Fender elim with LED tail and signals
Frame sliders

Soon
jet kit?
520 (0/+3)?

xeno151... dirt riding (like flat tracking) comes to mind as a good learning ground for imperfections on the road. granted the body position of a dirt bike is different from road bikes, but the concept carries over. i've seen my faster faster friends (must faster!) control a dift bike with body positioning alone. that's kinda what you want to learn going over imperfections, i.e. how do you control a slide hitting a tar snake for example (or worse, a wet one at that!). same goes with handling of bumpy roads.  one thing for sure. i was never worried about those tar snakes before until my first crash. then i always worried about them.

btw, there are roads here that are goat trails. heck the one beginning up the mountain at the end of the street becomes one. i HATE them with a passion as it's hard to control those bumps. so i just go really, really slow. that's my solution for me. cuz the whole body tenses up a lot on those goat trail roads and it doesn't help i'm on the gixxer the past. the duc won't see these goat trails, for sure.

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"Leaders are like tea; put them in hot water to find out how strong they are." Anonymous

Hey i would just like to really give an extra thanks this is my first chance to have a good ride and i took on what you said, leaning towards the mirror looking where i want to be and what a difference! i was going round corners much faster but at the same time the bike felt much more planted and confident it was great, this forum is so helpful, the tips from more experienced riders about body position it just makes a novice rider that much more confident and able also coming off is a good experience too as it has changed my response as i go into  corner and maybe my confidence is not quite up to my spped on the odd corner but no touching the brakes just off the gas and lean and its just as you say lean towards the mirror keep your eyes in the right place and through the corner you go.

 

thanks heaps for the tips