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hitting the twisties

Last post 04-09-2008, 03:27 AM by high_revs. 10 replies.
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  •  04-07-2008, 06:11 PM 285661

    hitting the twisties

    Well I've been riding for about 3-4 years now, never really thought of anything other than wheelies. Yesterday I went with a few friends down a twisty road and I loved it but never did get too fast. They were at the end waiting on me. Any good books to read to get faster/better or is it just seat time? Is there a science to it??  I remember a few things I did that just didn't feel right/comfy.

    1. Upon approaching a turn I would hit the brakes only to have my bike "dive" into the turn which was too early (wasn't the apex)

    2. While in the turn I was going "in and out" of the curve, basically I wasn't holding a straight line during the turn.

    3. If I was too hot in the turn or got scared I would just completely let off the gas, I don't know if this is correct or not

    4. And finally I was scared to go too fast in the turn because I just didn't have faith in my rear tire, I could just "see" the rear tire coming out from under me.

     

    Any opinions or tips??

     

  •  04-07-2008, 09:37 PM 285672 in reply to 285661

    Re: hitting the twisties

    hmm... the first thing to train your mindset is "never try to keep up or go faster to feel you belong in the group ride." that usually spell out disaster, imho and in my experience (not me crashing from keeping up, but others in our group).

    i hear proficient motorcycling is good. some of keith codes books are ok. there's really no science to it. but making the bike dive into the turn isn't one good way unless you're trying to trail brake your way (which really shouldn't be done in the street also). i would start with just do all your braking while vertical, turn the bike, and slowly gas your way out. gas here means no wheelies. take is slow, but a sure way of getting into twistie riding.

    not holding a line could result in different things. were you on/off the throttle? were you too hot coming in? was your body shifting all the time. hence my recomendation above of finish all breaking, turn the bike in, and slowly get on the gas. no shifting of body movement from hanging off is necessary.

    letting off the gas is what most people will say is a big no no. but this depends on how fast you're getting and how loaded are the forks. in the track, the suspension is compressed and if you let go of the gas, the weight transfer will go forward thus putting more force down on the forks. if you reach the limit, the tires could give out. but again this depends on how hot are we talking about here. it's natural reaction to "coast" your way thru the turn if you're hot. i would keep neutral throttle to prevent shifting the weight from the back to the front. hence again, taking it slow by sure. (not preaching here, but really making a point most riders make a mistake on).

    most people won't crash due to the rear tire. i think it'll be the front becuase people come in too hot, apply brakes too much then flick it in and let the dice roll (as they say). that's the problem of trying keep up. you'll gas it hard on the straight to get caught up... be very hard on the brakes.. turn... and then say the prayers.

    it's weird how you brought this up. yesterday in my ride with my friend, i kept the straights sane and just carried the momentum into the turn (for those large sweepers). never really even passed 45deg lean or even close to it. but it's a great way to learn how to enter turns w/o the complexities of braking, trail braking, etc. someone taught me this in my newbie years and it really sank, not to mention reinforced by level 1 class with keith code superbike school (day 1, no brakes, light brakes at end of day, no shifting). it's a really good drill to ease you way into twistie riding, plus avoid the ticket for warp speed on the straights which is where most people get busted.

    keep the questions coming. by asking, you've taken the first step already into the right direction. your friends should reinforce the "take your time, we're not going anywhere or leaving you."

    now if you're local, i'll trade you buddy riding time with how to wheelie. i still can't even pull a power wheelie off a regeared gsxr 750. was too chicken to try it on the 1098S yesterday  Smile



    "Leaders are like tea; put them in hot water to find out how strong they are." Anonymous
  •  04-07-2008, 09:50 PM 285676 in reply to 285672

    Re: hitting the twisties

    Yeah, they tell me to take it slow but its hard not to want to speed up lol. Today I used my rear brake upon entering the turn and it seemed to work better. I'm learning thought. It will take time, I just want to learn the correct way the first time and try not to develop so many bad habbits that I will have to break in the future.

     

    Wheelies, on a 750, it should come up in 2nd under power. I don't clutch, too scared. I have an 07 R1. I only have about 300 miles on it so I am trying to take things slow and easy till I have it broke in. Once I get about 1500 on it I'll see how easy the front comes up.

  •  04-08-2008, 12:05 AM 285679 in reply to 285676

    Re: hitting the twisties

    you must be a former dirt biker to use the rear brake and be comfortable with it. Big Smilef

    it is hard to not speed up. i can see that completely as i was also frustrated before in my early months (different riding buddy who just kept on leaving me).




    "Leaders are like tea; put them in hot water to find out how strong they are." Anonymous
  •  04-08-2008, 01:54 AM 285688 in reply to 285679

    Re: hitting the twisties

    No I've never been on a dirtbike. I started using the rear brake after trying the front. The front would make the nose dive, I don't know if thats a good thing or not.........I guess I just need alot of seat time and quit trying to analyze everything LOL
  •  04-08-2008, 04:41 AM 285701 in reply to 285688

    Re: hitting the twisties

    some of the problems u r discussing can be solved w/ adjustments to suspension along w/ changes to your riding style.  both should go hand in hand, as it would be stupid to teach u to ride an insufficient bike.  given that u r a new rider, chances are very slim that u know anything about suspension... but heres a lil info to demonstrate my pt.

    1.  front end dive usually results from too much sag and too little compression damping at the forks.  bad body position over the bars w/ excessive weight on the bars will make the problem worse and the bike more unstable.

    2.  wallowing midcorner, esp on long corners usually results from too little rebound damping at the rear (and possibly the front).  again, your body position being all over the place will only make it worse... as will problems w/ the front suspension.  

    3.  def not correct.  esp w/ your front end diving, this is going to transfer a ton of weight off the rear tire making it very possible that the rear tire will come out from under your.  this is often called "chopping the throttle" and should never be done.  honestly, the rear brake is a slightly better option... but not by much.

    4.  first off, your bike has a ton of power that makes this problem a reality... but if u were to solve the problems w/ #1-3, this feeling would prob go away.  w/ your suspension off and horrible front end dive, i doubt uve got good weight transfer to the rear end.  so since the bike isnt balanced, it feels horrible throughout the corner and even worse on exit because of the extra springrate at the rear end.

    if u want some reading material check out Twist of the Wrist II by Keith Code.  there are plenty of riding tips in there to help u be a smoother, safer rider.  but id also seriously look at getting your suspension setup for your weight.  even w/out changing things like damping and springrate, u could be soo much more confident on the bike. 


    Naked 93' F2...... RIP -- 04/12/07
    04' 600RR Black - currently stuck between track and street usage
    - Brembo Master, Sato's, & Ohlins out back
  •  04-08-2008, 05:57 AM 285705 in reply to 285701

    Re: hitting the twisties

    I've read and heard from others that having your suspension set up for your weight is like night and day. I plan to have it set up at some point. I may try to do it sometime this week or the next. The guy at the dealership tried to tell me how but confused me more than anything.
  •  04-08-2008, 08:24 AM 285711 in reply to 285705

    Re: hitting the twisties

    thepolice2006:
    I've read and heard from others that having your suspension set up for your weight is like night and day. I plan to have it set up at some point. I may try to do it sometime this week or the next. The guy at the dealership tried to tell me how but confused me more than anything.

    theres plenty of info on the internet that u should be able to get it close enough for street use w/out paying someone.  should only take a couple hours, mostly due to the all the info u need to read/watch.  first, check out the suspension thread in the tutorial section here to set wat is called 'sag'.  the GP suspension page is prob the best for this IMO.  then, head to YouTube and watch every video involving the suspension guru Dave Moss.  the user speedybee43 has a ton of Dave Moss's DVD posted, so watch em.  this will give u a better feel on how to set the damping.  literally u can jus emulate the steps Dave shows and the bike will feel much much better.

    doing this all yourself will give u a much better understanding of how and why the bike behaves as it does when riding.  with that understanding, ull eventually be able to better solve the problem of an ill-handling bike and will be on your way to finding the best possible settings for your riding.  theres no perfect solution that works for everyone, but there are areas that everyone needs to address to get in the ballpark.  this data/these vids will teach u all those. 


    Naked 93' F2...... RIP -- 04/12/07
    04' 600RR Black - currently stuck between track and street usage
    - Brembo Master, Sato's, & Ohlins out back
  •  04-08-2008, 06:32 PM 285731 in reply to 285711

    Re: hitting the twisties

    Wow, he really knows his stuff. I messed with my front and rear rebound and compression, the only thing I'm having problem with is sag.

     

    Is your first measurement without the rider sitting on the bike? I think I got it after the first measurement.

  •  04-08-2008, 07:16 PM 285734 in reply to 285731

    Re: hitting the twisties

    thepolice2006:

    Wow, he really knows his stuff. I messed with my front and rear rebound and compression, the only thing I'm having problem with is sag.

    hehe, c this is already incorrect.  maybe u didnt catch the correct vid, but sag is always the FIRST thing u must do.  adjustments to damping are worthless if u dont have the sag correct, so ull need to redo those later

    thepolice2006:

    Is your first measurement without the rider sitting on the bike? I think I got it after the first measurement.

    for sag, the first measurement is w/ the suspension fully extended, so no weight on the tire.  u can easily balance the bike on the kickstand to lift the front and rear tires off the ground (though obviously one end at a time).  so extend the suspension, take a measurement... sit on the bike straight up and down, take a measurement... the difference between the two numbers is your sag. 


    Naked 93' F2...... RIP -- 04/12/07
    04' 600RR Black - currently stuck between track and street usage
    - Brembo Master, Sato's, & Ohlins out back
  •  04-09-2008, 03:27 AM 285755 in reply to 285734

    Re: hitting the twisties

    get a couple of your buddies. one lifts each bar end to lift the bike so you get the max distance. then sit on the bike in normal riding position while one of your friends balances the bike holding it from the front fairing in front of you *without* pressing down or adding/lifting weight on the front. then your 2nd friend takes the measurement when the forks are compressed. subtract numbers and you can figure out how much preload you need to add or subtract. (you can also use a zip tie to make measuring easier, but don't bounce up and down the front while sitting on it)

    same goes for the rear. except what's tougher on the rear is that you have to use the same point when you measure from full extended to compressed with you on bike with normal position (note here i'm emphasizing normal riding position). pick a sticker, point or something on the tail to make sure your measurements are the same each way. use a masking tape if possible and keep the tape measure as vertical as you can.

    for the front compression/rebound, it's a little of a black art. you should see Dave Moss work as just watching helps learn a lot. what you want to do is press on the front real hard once and make sure it doesn't bounce (up and down). it should come up once and that's it. i think some of of his older videos showed that when posted online (i bought the dvd, but haven't watched it yet or watched it on youtube). same thing for the rear. then you want to kinda press down the seat while the bike is vertical to see if the front comes up differently from the rear. you should aim for the same rate of motion going up to show balance. you don't want the front coming up slowly than the rear, or vice versa.



    "Leaders are like tea; put them in hot water to find out how strong they are." Anonymous
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